Navigating Career Changes in Accounting with Insights from Mike Manalac, Accounting Manager, Google

Transcript

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This week, I am sharing my interview with Mike Manilak, Accounting Manager at Google.

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Mike is an outspoken advocate for accounting professionals looking to leverage and maximize their careers.

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Please enjoy the episode.

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Welcome to the Finance Leader Podcast, where leadership is bigger than the numbers.

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I am your host, stephen McLean.

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This is the podcast for developing leaders in finance and accounting.

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Please consider following me on Twitter, facebook, instagram and LinkedIn.

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My usernames and the links are in this episode's show notes.

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Thank you.

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This is episode number 126, and let's get right to the interview with Mike.

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You will love it.

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Please enjoy.

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I want to welcome Mike Mandelach to the Finance Leader Podcast.

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Mike is a CPA who worked in public accounting for PwC and also for Walmart, and is currently working for Google.

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Mike is dedicated to helping accountants get unstuck and is an incredible voice for accounting professionals.

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Mike, thank you for joining me today and please tell us more about you.

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Yeah, great to be here.

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Thank you, stephen.

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I've been following some of your stuff.

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It's all really inspiring stuff.

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I was just picking your brain a second ago about the military background of finance, which is an area I never had thought about, and I love talking about those finance areas that are maybe the less discussed in the various circles.

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So very excited to be here.

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So, thank you, and great intro too.

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By the way, spent most of my time in, or started the early part of my career in, public accounting.

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As you mentioned, interned at a small firm and then spent the chunk of my public accounting career at a top 20 firm before going to big four to kind of wrap it up with the at the public accounting route with PWC.

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So I did just about 10 years in the public accounting space and I was I was on the audit side of the house.

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That might be something that's familiar to some of your listeners here.

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Made the jump to industry after that and that's when I really wanted to get into.

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I was really interested in big data and data analysis, so I wanted to go the Fortune 500 route and that's when I found my spot in an internal financial reporting role with Walmart.

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So I handled the Walmartcom P&L and balance sheet, their e-commerce side of the operations and some of their other online properties that they have.

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So that was really fun, had a really good experience there, really exposed me to the industry side of what it would be like on the corporate side of things and various accounts, and at that moment I was across the country.

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I'm from Baltimore and had moved across the country to kind of go after a big tech job that was, in my mind, a dream job that I was going for, and once I had the public accounting experience and the Fortune 500 experience, I started to get some traction with some of these other companies in the tech space, which was, you know, in my mind, the ideal role that I was really chasing after.

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And that's when I landed at Google.

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So I've been there for six years now a little bit over managing a team of that for four or five years, I think.

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At this point we opened a finance hub in Chicago.

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So I was out in what we call the mothership, the Mountain View Sunnyvale area of the Bay Area, when I started.

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But then we opened a finance hub here in Chicago and raised my hand to come try to help build this office out in the West Loop in Chicago, if anybody's familiar.

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So I've been here since 2019 and seen a lot of growth with the company and while the whole world has changed in the last five years, that's probably not news to anyone.

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So, and that's true with the work at Google.

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It's true with life.

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It's true with in the office versus work from home.

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It's true with life.

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It's true with in the office versus work from home.

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It's true with a lot of the leadership strategies that now need to adapt to this new world that we live in.

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But yeah, that's a little bit about me off the clock.

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I run a website, mikefromaccountingcom.

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I try to highlight the fun and fulfilling side of accounting and there's a lot of accountants out there that feel stuck to your point and I try to, you know, write some, put out some lighthearted material that's also informative but fun, and I illustrate those myself.

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So have that out there, put out a playbook and a course.

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So really just trying to reach any of those accountants that maybe all that they hear is maybe the negative side of the profession, which there's a lot of that floating around out there.

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So just want to make sure that people get to hear both sides of the coin, not just one side.

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Hopefully that's a good rundown of what I'm all about, Steve.

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Oh yeah, thank you for that.

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I really appreciate that and I really like your career pathway and one of the things I wanted to talk with you about today was accounting career pathways and you often mention that entry-level accountants try to start work with the big four in hopes of getting experience to move on to industry, and that big four definitely has a strong pipeline for entry-level positions.

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Why does the big four appear so important to young accountants getting started and what advice would you give to new accounting graduates getting ready to apply for that first role?

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Yeah, I mean before the big four.

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You know, I don't know what was it the big eight and there was probably a bunch of others, so they've had a foothold for a long time.

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So I think part of it is just they've been the pinnacle of what you do, what you aspire to be and the job that you aspire to land coming out of school.

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And because they're so big, they do have the most resources and I've been able to witness that firsthand.

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The training is top-notch, the investment in AI forward approaches.

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You're going to see that with the big four more than you're going to see it at your local accounting shop.

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You know what I mean.

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So I think people recognize that and they see that they do get some of the best training.

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They have some of the best resources, because the best and brightest are aspiring to get there.

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They want to work with other people that are also very motivated, and so I feel like that attracts a lot of people and it always has.

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I think it always will, and there's a prestige aspect to it and I think a lot of people, oddly enough, they join the big four because they think about what that's going to mean for them when they leave the big four, which is funny.

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I don't know how many professions they think about.

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Where do I join, based on where to when I want to leave, where do I want to go?

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But maybe that's not discussed too much, but I think that's definitely a factor is, you know, you get that credibility.

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And then what's?

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What's next in your career after that?

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To your point, a lot of people think the grass is greener and they end up in industry after so many years in public accounting space.

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So that's why I think big four is probably the, you know, still seen as one of the more desirable opportunities coming out of college.

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It's also because the professors and everybody pushes people that way.

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You know, you definitely feel funneled into that.

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You're not really, you're not there, nobody's really pushing.

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Oh, start your own practice, or take this job in industry, or maybe you want to work at the Pentagon as a finance officer.

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That's not really something that gets discussed much, so students are really only aspiring to be what is laid out in front of them.

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And I like to talk a lot about the various other paths that maybe don't get discussed as much, which I alluded to earlier and but it definitely as of today.

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You know, the path is is definitely big four.

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You know even the mentality that you're lesser than if you don't get into big four, which obviously is not true, but it's propped up so highly.

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A lot of people think that way.

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So I think you had another question.

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Was it about what's how students should think about exiting into public?

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Is that what it was?

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Right, right, exactly.

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How about that time when they've done some experience in the big four and then want to make that leap to industry?

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Why don't you take us down through that process?

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Yeah, one of the things that you hear is, well, go to big four.

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Then the next thing you hear is get your CPA both solid pieces of advice, honestly.

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But then you also hear, stay until senior.

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And then people internally, once you're a senior, will say, stay until manager.

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And then, when you're manager, they say, well, you're a senior will say stay until manager.

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And then when you're manager, they say, well, your partner track, your partner track, don't leave, right.

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So it's very easy to get sucked into this, into this, right.

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So.

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But a lot of people they kind of burn out.

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It's, you know, it's, it's highly regarded in the accounting profession to work at these companies, but it's a grind.

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People who say it's not a grind.

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Well, I think nobody really says it's not a grind.

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It's pretty well documented.

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Busy season is pretty grueling.

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You might be doing 80-hour weeks.

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You might be working on Saturdays.

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I think 70% of the big firms have people working on Saturdays.

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In busy season A lot of firms have minimum amount of hours.

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Maybe that starts at 60.

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It's oddly enough there's no cap of hours because you know, I think 80 is is is a lot and that's not unusual, you know.

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And a lot of people burn out.

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They do a couple of years, they reach that next milestone of maybe senior.

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I think something about the tenure in those big firms is about two years.

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So right about then is when you're either making senior or you're not making senior and you're ready to get out.

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But a lot of people look to industry and one of the shortcuts is, while you're in the public accounting space let's say your audit or taxes to try and find out which industry you do want to exit into and start working on those clients.

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A lot of times you get hired by the same clients that you used to audit and that's about as good of a foot in the door as you can have.

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And another reason why big four is seen and so highly regarded is because they have a lot of the big clients.

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Almost all, I think all of the, or all but a few Fortune 500s are audited and tax returns are prepared out of the big four.

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So but at least for me when I went to exit into industry and everyone painted this picture well, once you got all this public accounting experience you get any job you want, and for me that wasn't the case.

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I mean, maybe there's plenty of people better than me, so maybe that was true for them, but you know they're not handing out jobs at Google and Amazon and Nike and Salesforce.

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They're just not handing those out.

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And what I found was a lot of times those companies that I just named that I later interviewed, for they don't.

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They they'll take somebody coming straight out of public accounting but they really prefer somebody who has the public accounting experience and the industry experience you know.

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Like what do you know about the ERP coming out of audit?

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You know nothing.

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What do you know about booking a?

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journal entry you don't know anything.

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You don't know how to lead a month-end close process.

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I know you talk a lot about leadership.

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You come out as a leader in the public accounting space to lead an audit engagement but you don't come out as a leader to lead a corporate accounting team to do month-end and year-end close and the Ks and the Qs and all of that.

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So it's uh, those types of problems, yeah, yeah, so you know they are really looking for those experiences.

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Um, and that's why I had said after even getting into Walmart was tricky, but, um, after having Walmart and showing I could do some of this stuff with the audit experience, then more doors started to open.

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So that's how that's how it.

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That's how it went down for me at least.

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I know other people maybe got referred or their old, their old partner in the industry, but for me it was a uphill battle that I kind of did the hard way and that's that's where a lot of like the things that I put out there for to try and help students now or younger accounting professionals, it's all coming from that space of I did it the hard way.

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By doing that I learned a lot of things and if somebody can leverage some of those wins and losses and learnings that I went through without having to put themselves through the grind, have at it, and that's me trying to pay it forward, and I think more people should try to do that honestly in the accounting space.

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Oh yeah, I think that's great.

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So I'm very curious about when you did go for that Walmart job.

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What particular skills did you have to show them to be able to move on to the next step and maybe get off of that role?

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I mean, I think, just like I said, the people that do come in, some of them are straight from public accounting.

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A lot of them were from EY, so it was almost like I don't know if that was a coincidence or not but you bring in a lot of people and other people from EY apply and that resonates with you.

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So me, coming from PwC, I think that resonated with them and they knew that.

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Okay, coming from Big Four, they've probably got a great foundation to really do the type of work that was involved with the internal financial reporting role with Walmart, with walmartcom.

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So, um, you know a lot of a lot of it.

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Very much was the things that I did learn in public accounting and I was fortunate to have worked across a lot of different um clients and things like that.

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So, I think, being able to adapt to different clients I was, I was pretty big on process improvement and, you know, really trying to, uh know, really be an expert at Excel and different formulas and stuff like that, which, on the industry side, is something that is an absolute need.

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So, really showcasing those kind of things as well as I don't think there was a question of man like there's a lot of big data here with Walmart, like there's a lot of things going on.

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We have tons of transactions.

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We have a very short month in close.

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Is this guy going to be able to hang?

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And I think having audited publicly traded companies in the past was a big foot in the door, because you've worked on the 10K, you understand how those things go.

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And, let's say, I was at a smaller firm that didn't audit publicly traded companies.

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Maybe my Excel skills weren't as great.

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I think it would have been a bigger stretch, not that it couldn't have happened, but, like I said, when I got there and I looked around, people were coming from accounting teams at Pepsi.

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Everybody almost came from Big Four, but they also spent time at, say, nike and Pepsi and Amazon.

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So those are the people you're working with side by side at a place like Walmart.

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So that to me was very exciting as well, because you don't always run into those people out in the real world.

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Yeah, Right, right.

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Did you believe that you got a lot of mentorship in the big four at PwC?

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It was there.

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I think a lot of that is you as much as you.

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You have to really go after the mentee-mentor relationship and you also just have to learn from being out there and seeing people do things in the office.

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At this time, most people were working in an office either the office of the firm or the office of the client but you're seeing these things in real time.

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You're seeing people all in one room and how they operate, and that's a little.

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You know.

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I don't know that everybody's getting that as much today.

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You know you're not being able to learn by observing.

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It's much harder to do on a screen like this and there's a lot of nuance to it and the soft skills and the emotional intelligence and the ability to give feedback and take feedback this stuff's very hard to learn when you're on a Zoom call or something like this.

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So those mentorship opportunities were there For me.

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I wouldn't say that was a big part of it, but it was a part of me seeing something and it motivated me to see wow, they seem to be living a great life.

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What are the things that they're doing?

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What's made them successful?

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And they're swinging for the fences.

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I can swing for the fences too.

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So in that regard, you know, maybe not a formal mentorship, but I definitely soaked it up as much as I can.

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Oh, that's great.

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I also have another question about internships.

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Should students pursue internships before trying to go out to that big four job?

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Yeah, I think one, absolutely.

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I think they should for a few reasons.

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I think a lot of those big firms almost the vast majority of them get an offer to come back full time.

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Then it's up to them to say whether they want it or not.

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Hot, and you come in and you've already done a busy season of experience with your internship.

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Maybe you even get to pick and choose which team you want to work on.

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Maybe you go back to your old team, whereas a lot of people who just take the job that comes to them after school, then they have to learn what is it that I like?

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If you have an internship, you may already get a sense for what you like and don't like, and then, if you get the offer, you might be able to leverage that to say I want to work on these publicly traded clients, I want to work in financial services or big tech clients, and so I would definitely recommend that to anybody who has that as an option.

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And for me, I interned at a small local firm, so while that didn't necessarily play out in the long run to benefit me from getting a full-time position there, but I was able to see hey, this is a 50-person firm.

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I think I want bigger and having the internship.

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I wouldn't have maybe known that otherwise, and that's when I went to a bigger firm.

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So that's one thing.

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And then another thing is if you go look at almost any good, highly desirable industry role in private accounting, it's going to say probably Big Four Preferred.

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Steve, I used to see that all the time when I didn't have the Big Four title Big Four Preferred, big Four Preferred.

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And it was so much so that if you're able to get an internship and do four months and you get the big four under your belt a lot of times, by the way, those are paid.

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Overtime is paid.

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A lot of people think that overtime isn't paid, but man interns are some of the best treated people at these big firms.

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And then you walk away and even if you don't take the offer, you can check that box with.

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I've had prior big four experience, so I highly recommend doing that.

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Yeah, I highly recommend doing it Now, it doesn't mean everybody gets it, but as early as you can try and get that Definitely.

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It seems like you mostly have had accounting roles in your career.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah, you haven't really moved over to the FP&A side.

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You've done some auditing, is that right?

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Yeah, I mean the-.

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What do you think about accounting moving over to the FP&A roles?

00:19:45.476 --> 00:19:46.199
You know I feel like you hear it.

00:19:46.199 --> 00:19:48.768
It's not uncommon and I think when you hear about someone going from accounting to FP&A, like that would be of interest to me.

00:19:48.768 --> 00:19:49.490
You know I feel like you hear it.

00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:54.365
It's not uncommon and I think when you hear about someone going from accounting to FP&A, like that would be of interest to me.

00:19:54.365 --> 00:20:03.436
You know I'm happy doing what I'm doing now, but surely when I think about my future I'm not pigeonholing myself into.

00:20:03.436 --> 00:20:07.923
You know I'm a financial reporting GL, accounting Not at all.

00:20:07.923 --> 00:20:12.217
I expand that to other finance roles and, honestly, beyond finance.

00:20:12.278 --> 00:20:21.064
If you look at not that I necessarily want to be a CFO one day but if you look at a CFO's resume, it's not just accounting.

00:20:21.064 --> 00:20:22.428
A lot of times they have their CPA.

00:20:22.428 --> 00:20:26.088
A lot of times they did do some accounting but they also did some FP&A.

00:20:26.088 --> 00:20:28.960
They also did some sales on the business side of things.

00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:37.549
So I feel like a lot of the stats you see about people leaving the profession and it's looked at as such a bad thing.

00:20:38.212 --> 00:20:50.460
I personally feel like, look, if you've reached a certain point and you have these transferable skills, at a certain point you might want to pivot into something adjacent like an FP&A, and that's just going to help you grow in a different way.

00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:55.528
I don't look at that as a oh, you abandoned accounting because it was horrible, you know.

00:20:55.528 --> 00:21:00.807
I uh, while I haven't went that route myself, I see people do it and I totally get why they would.

00:21:00.807 --> 00:21:10.569
Uh, I definitely don't restrict myself from from going that route too, because I think it's all about being well-rounded, you know, and I don't look at that as a bad thing?

00:21:10.734 --> 00:21:13.914
I don't know, do you feel like that's a bad thing if you kind of pivot?

00:21:14.015 --> 00:21:14.777
No, not at all.

00:21:14.777 --> 00:21:22.278
I think this goes right into the next topic I wanted to address with you, and that's about setting yourself apart.

00:21:22.278 --> 00:21:28.509
Now, how should accountants help themselves to be ready to manage more senior role?

00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:38.345
To be ready to manage more senior role and, um, because if they can do this, apart from everything else, what kind of skills do they need to develop?

00:21:38.365 --> 00:21:44.321
uh, you know, it's funny because a lot of accountants we all do have a similar background of a lot of us.

00:21:44.321 --> 00:21:49.878
Maybe all have a not everybody, obviously but you, you graduate.

00:21:49.878 --> 00:21:56.184
If you can have the big four, that separates you a little bit more, if you can get your CPA, that separates you a little bit more.

00:21:56.184 --> 00:22:01.166
But there's a lot of accountants out there that had a big four route and had their CPA.

00:22:01.166 --> 00:22:04.095
That doesn't guarantee necessarily anything.

00:22:04.095 --> 00:22:08.182
So you almost need to start standing out in different ways too.

00:22:08.182 --> 00:22:09.505
That maybe you're.

00:22:09.505 --> 00:22:22.337
I don't necessarily look at it as competition Cause I think there's plenty of roles around, but if there, if there's a lot of big four accountants with their CPA out there, what's going to make you stick out in the stack of resumes, you know?

00:22:22.337 --> 00:22:24.663
So I think that's a good that's.

00:22:24.923 --> 00:22:33.421
It's a great question and I think a lot of the ways that I think are probably the easiest and maybe aren't discussed as much are really on the soft skill side.

00:22:33.421 --> 00:22:41.624
Especially with AI taking over big time, the things that AI can't really excel at are these soft skills.

00:22:41.624 --> 00:22:42.886
Leadership is another one.

00:22:42.886 --> 00:22:47.005
Very uniquely human skill, creativity and critical thinking.

00:22:47.005 --> 00:22:52.279
Those are soft skills that are kind of hard to learn and, well, very hard to learn in a textbook.

00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:55.228
A lot of that is personality based, right.

00:22:55.268 --> 00:23:11.808
So, um, but developing those soft skills and you know, we all know the accounting stereotype maybe maybe there's this perception from the outside that we're not creative or we're not tech forward or we're antisocial or boring.

00:23:11.808 --> 00:23:19.535
Right, that's a dated stereotype, but there are plenty of people the bean counter.

00:23:19.535 --> 00:23:23.306
There are plenty of people though that that fits them pretty well, right?

00:23:23.306 --> 00:23:34.127
So one thing you easily could do is just, well, right now, I think the most dynamic accountants that are breaking that mold are getting the best opportunities.

00:23:34.127 --> 00:23:58.863
So, if you think about all those attributes I just named, if you can show that you're not that, then you're really just, you're really separating yourself, cause then not only did you have those other qualities that a lot of other accountants have, you're actually breaking the stereotypes, and if people can see that you can separate yourself from you know, maybe the stereotype only represents 40% of the professional accountants out there, but hey, that's a big chunk.

00:23:59.644 --> 00:24:09.961
If you can show that you're creative or you're you're, have this critical thinking in the leadership and soft skills, that'll really set you apart and that actually you don't have to go to school for that.

00:24:09.961 --> 00:24:13.386
You know like you do have to get outside of your comfort zone and things like that.

00:24:13.446 --> 00:24:27.065
But that's that's one way that I feel like is not that hard, and another one that's very tangible too is if anybody thinks this is true on the finance side too, if you think back as to like, who are the leaders?

00:24:27.065 --> 00:24:34.242
At your last meeting, somebody asked for an idea or a question, or who has feedback on this process.

00:24:34.242 --> 00:24:38.436
It's always the same people that raise their hand or have something to say.

00:24:38.436 --> 00:24:44.903
You don't need the title I'm not talking about title but it's always the same people that have an opinion, have an idea.

00:24:45.384 --> 00:25:00.846
They end up being the leaders, and then, eventually, people see you as that way, and if you're going to promote somebody into a leadership role, you better have a damn opinion about something, because if you got nothing to say, then you have nothing to offer.

00:25:00.846 --> 00:25:07.217
So another thing is and maybe I have too much to say Sometimes I feel that way, but an easy way is to just hey, have an opinion and share your point of view.

00:25:07.217 --> 00:25:18.070
But an easy way is to just hey, have an opinion and share your point of view, and if you do that, you're going to be one of the two out of the eight people in that boardroom that continuously people are looking at.

00:25:18.070 --> 00:25:24.916
Well, what's he got to say?

00:25:24.916 --> 00:25:27.267
If you do that for long enough, people are going to see you as the leader, whether you have the title or not.

00:25:27.267 --> 00:25:30.777
So, and that doesn't require a degree or some fancy certification either it doesn't require a degree or some fancy certification either.

00:25:30.817 --> 00:25:38.429
Absolutely, that's a great point, and I think this is a great segue into the topic that I love to talk about the most, and that's leadership.

00:25:38.429 --> 00:25:49.641
Again, just like you just said, I believe that, no matter your role, anyone can be a leader if they make a positive difference.

00:25:49.641 --> 00:25:51.063
You're bringing in ideas, you're talking with people.

00:25:51.063 --> 00:25:52.005
You're connecting people together.

00:25:52.005 --> 00:25:52.826
You're bridging gaps.

00:25:52.826 --> 00:26:02.359
You also talk about gaining access to the company's inner circle, and I'm just curious about your thoughts on learning and applying leadership, just like you talked about for accountants.

00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:09.261
And then, how can accounting people make a difference, performing above their daily task requirements?

00:26:12.375 --> 00:26:26.358
Yeah, I think it's a it's a really good question because I think getting your foot in the door and getting that, that role and that offer and and then joining the team that you've always wanted, that's sometimes it feels like the finish line and then you realize it's actually just the new starting point.

00:26:26.358 --> 00:26:35.005
You know, then you have to go prove yourself all over and at least in my case I mentioned some of the caliber of people you're working with.

00:26:35.005 --> 00:26:40.154
You know you're working with a bunch of all-stars like how are you going to stand out in a room full of all-stars?

00:26:40.154 --> 00:26:42.921
And that can get tricky too.

00:26:42.921 --> 00:26:50.063
So, but I think it's a great time to ask the question and to really think about this, because it's a level playing field.

00:26:50.063 --> 00:27:06.723
I was just talking about this the other day as far as leadership goes, because this communication and collaboration in this virtual work environment, it's very difficult and trying to be a leader and have an engaging team, lead an engaging team, is very hard.

00:27:06.723 --> 00:27:11.336
Virtually, to be honest, like the top execs in leadership, leadership they don't really know.

00:27:11.336 --> 00:27:12.942
They don't really know what to do.

00:27:12.942 --> 00:27:33.482
You know, they it was covid threw every, everyone into the same level playing field of how do we make this work, you know, and, uh, so for anybody anybody who is who can recognize that, they recognize the early mover advantage, they recognize the fact that if I can solve this, it's not like somebody is going to say that's not how we do it.

00:27:33.482 --> 00:27:34.705
Nobody knows how to do it.

00:27:34.705 --> 00:27:38.967
Why do you think all the trend is to send people back to the office?

00:27:38.967 --> 00:27:45.625
That's the dusty old playbook of I don't know what to do, but get your butts back in the seats and then it'll all go away.

00:27:45.625 --> 00:27:47.256
You know it's a new.

00:27:47.256 --> 00:27:48.597
It's a new work environment.

00:27:48.597 --> 00:28:12.561
You know it's a totally new work environment and I think leveraging new tools uh, I, I personally was shocked to look, to look to my left and right of amongst the all-stars to see everyone's using zoom, everyone's using chat pings and Google docs to leave comments Like that's how everyone pretty much in the world is is, uh, like the work from home starter kit is kind of what I've been calling it.

00:28:12.643 --> 00:28:22.569
But I've been fortunate to really leverage a digital whiteboard and that's a very it's a collaborative tool that was built for virtual teams.

00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:25.573
I don't see anybody in the finance space doing that.

00:28:25.573 --> 00:28:33.001
So I put out a course recently called Sketchy Business Practices, just to teach finance teams how to do that.

00:28:33.001 --> 00:28:37.115
So I put out a course recently called Sketchy Business Practices, just to teach finance teams how to do that, and that's one where it's like, hey, nobody knows how to do this.

00:28:37.115 --> 00:28:40.622
New tools are popping up every day.

00:28:40.682 --> 00:28:53.743
If you want to stand out, once you get in even no matter the competition look to see what other people are doing and then look to see what they're not doing, and the level playing field gives you an opportunity.

00:28:53.804 --> 00:29:02.346
So I think you know, especially for gen z and the millennials in the workspace like you probably have an upper hand as far as embracing a new technology.

00:29:02.346 --> 00:29:30.150
So use that, use it, you know, uh, and by you pushing something that is is new and novel and you don't see other people doing it, you're standing out amongst your peers there too, and if it ends up turning out to be effective, then you're leading a team in a way that nobody else is, and I think that is something that I've got plenty of things to learn from my leadership and plenty of areas of improvement.

00:29:30.150 --> 00:29:34.707
But I try to push that envelope too, to say I'm not just going to do what everyone else is.

00:29:34.707 --> 00:29:40.579
I'm going to try some new things, and if it's working, then I'm going to lean into those things and if it's not working, I'm going to change the approach.

00:29:40.579 --> 00:29:43.627
So hopefully that that touches on your question.

00:29:43.835 --> 00:29:44.736
That's a great point.

00:29:44.736 --> 00:29:46.517
No, absolutely, that's perfect.

00:29:46.517 --> 00:29:55.963
And then showing the value of something different and how we can improve your processes, improve your communication, abridge those gaps.

00:29:55.963 --> 00:30:17.837
You'll see so many times still, companies that are siloed with their departments and you've got so many gaps in understanding communication, understanding metrics, and you're all trying to accomplish the same thing.

00:30:17.837 --> 00:30:22.049
You're trying to have your more value, you're trying to achieve your strategy, so I I like that leaning into doing something a little differently as a great point, absolutely.

00:30:22.049 --> 00:30:28.865
Um, there's another topic that you had mentioned a little bit ago that we can't get away from, and and that's artificial intelligence.

00:30:28.865 --> 00:30:33.395
Ai continues to rapidly change our profession.

00:30:33.395 --> 00:30:40.676
We are seeing many ERPs adding AI modules into the basic packages for businesses to do analysis.

00:30:40.676 --> 00:30:53.693
What are your thoughts on how we can better prepare ourselves and our teams, and what skills do we need to develop now in order to be prepared for AI teams, and what skills do we need to develop now in order to be prepared for AI?

00:30:53.693 --> 00:30:57.925
Yeah, at first maybe it felt a little scary, but I think accountants are really embracing it and most of the firms are embracing it.

00:30:57.925 --> 00:31:03.727
Everyone in finance, as well as the rest of the world, I think, are all willing, ready to embrace it.

00:31:03.727 --> 00:31:05.959
But it adds that question of geez.

00:31:05.959 --> 00:31:10.588
If it can write an email better than I can, chatgpt can write an email better than me.

00:31:10.588 --> 00:31:27.422
Or what good is my role in technical accounting if I can just have something spit out in a chatbot, like scan the entire IRS code, maybe, and spit out the exact phrase with the link to the reference, like what value am I going to add?

00:31:27.775 --> 00:31:40.484
And I think most people are looking at one side of it which I think is important, which is where AI is doing really well and it's maybe better than able to do is to say, I still do it the old way.

00:31:40.484 --> 00:31:57.508
So I think one is where AI has an edge against the human skill sets.

00:31:57.508 --> 00:32:02.744
I think leverage those tools and that's the space everyone is playing in now.

00:32:02.744 --> 00:32:10.705
What's the latest tool, what's the latest prompt I can put into chat GPT, and how is it impacting my day-to-day work to reduce my mundane tasks.

00:32:10.705 --> 00:32:17.980
The other side of the coin that I don't think people are talking about is well, what about the stuff that AI can't do so well?

00:32:17.980 --> 00:32:32.391
And that's why I love that we talked a little bit earlier about the leadership and the creativity, critical thinking, soft skills, those are things that I feel like we're all looking on where to upskill.

00:32:33.556 --> 00:32:45.896
Leadership again is not saying this is where you should upskill, but I think it's those uniquely human skills that we really need to hone and I think leaning in there is important to upskill in those areas.

00:32:45.896 --> 00:32:56.167
So that course that I mentioned using the digital whiteboard it's all about being a leader of virtual collaboration and effectively leading a team in this virtual environment.

00:32:56.167 --> 00:33:00.123
But the big part of that is AI isn't going to replace that.

00:33:00.123 --> 00:33:11.749
Ai is not going to be able to lead a team and connect the dots about what everyone's doing and facilitating conversations, like maybe one day, but that's a long way away.

00:33:11.749 --> 00:33:21.205
So I think it was another area where I felt like everyone's talking about this side of the coin of AI, but nobody's talking about the upskill side.

00:33:21.205 --> 00:33:23.935
And what do you do to upskill other than using the tools?

00:33:23.935 --> 00:33:25.038
Yeah, we'll use the tools.

00:33:25.038 --> 00:33:28.166
That's table stakes is to know and use the tools.

00:33:28.166 --> 00:33:36.683
But you also got to figure out well, how can I really capitalize on the human skills where AI isn't so great?

00:33:36.683 --> 00:33:44.536
So that's why this course came out and I was looking around and I was shocked that nobody was really using this whiteboard, digital whiteboard idea.

00:33:44.536 --> 00:33:48.066
There's a lot of ways you can upskill, but I wanted to at least.

00:33:48.346 --> 00:33:51.595
I think people are looking for actionable guidance these days.

00:33:51.595 --> 00:33:58.361
They don't want advice of upskilling a human skill set Like well, what does that mean?

00:33:58.361 --> 00:34:03.163
So that course that I put out was using all those uniquely human skills.

00:34:03.163 --> 00:34:06.669
That solves one how do I stay relevant in the age of AI?

00:34:06.669 --> 00:34:15.782
And then two, how do I solve the biggest remote virtual work challenge right now, which is collaboration and engagement?

00:34:15.782 --> 00:34:26.036
And I think stats are coming out that I think for leaders, it's four times harder to have an engaged team in a virtual environment compared to a physical environment.

00:34:26.797 --> 00:34:29.903
And what are you doing about that?

00:34:29.903 --> 00:34:32.469
And I think we've all been on those calls.

00:34:32.469 --> 00:34:34.358
Oh, half the team is on mute.

00:34:34.358 --> 00:34:36.284
A few people have their camera off.

00:34:36.284 --> 00:34:40.340
One guy is talking it's a one-way conversation, talking to a screen.

00:34:40.340 --> 00:34:41.443
What's he going to do?

00:34:41.443 --> 00:34:47.722
Slide 50 out of 75, another boring slide deck.

00:34:47.722 --> 00:34:49.826
That's not going to give you an engaging team.

00:34:49.826 --> 00:34:55.327
You're not going to be bursting with new ideas and I think people are seeing that it's playing out.

00:34:55.327 --> 00:35:03.780
Those, those remote teams aren't, aren't having these breakthrough ideas and, like I said, I think execs are saying come back to the office.

00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:13.561
And I think what I'm trying to say is and I actually like going into the office in a hybrid model but look, the answer isn't to just go back to the office to do it the old way.

00:35:13.561 --> 00:35:18.760
Why don't you just upskill and try and learn new things to adapt to this new environment?

00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:20.163
So that's been my approach.

00:35:20.262 --> 00:35:20.804
Absolutely.

00:35:20.804 --> 00:35:26.849
Yeah, I completely agree, and I think one of your biggest points is you're talking about upskill.

00:35:26.849 --> 00:35:33.255
If you're coming into your role and you're just going to do the basics, you're going to get replaced by the AI.

00:35:33.255 --> 00:35:43.208
You've got to upskill so you can add those additional skills, so you can make a difference up and you're doing some tasks every day.

00:35:43.208 --> 00:35:49.500
I mean, you're going to get passed on from something, either AI or somebody else who's upskilling.

00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:57.333
We're seeing more and more companies that are focusing on these skills instead of just the degrees, so I think that's a great point.

00:35:57.333 --> 00:35:58.708
Thank you for sharing that.

00:35:58.708 --> 00:35:59.951
Yeah, of course.

00:35:59.951 --> 00:36:02.077
Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:02.077 --> 00:36:07.293
So I wanted to ask have you read any good books lately, anything you can recommend to read?

00:36:09.166 --> 00:36:18.052
You know this isn't a leadership book, but you were talking a lot about standing out and there's this one book for some reason popped into my head.

00:36:18.052 --> 00:36:28.579
It's not a finance book, but it is inspiring and it's called Fascinate Fascinate, and it's by an author, sally Hogshead, who came out of the advertising space.

00:36:28.579 --> 00:36:29.346
Oh, you do?

00:36:29.346 --> 00:36:32.112
Ok, yeah, I got put onto that.

00:36:32.112 --> 00:36:38.177
I got put onto that book, and that's one that sticks out for this conversation in particular.

00:36:38.177 --> 00:36:44.130
But there was one core concept that that maybe I'll share here just while we're chatting about it.

00:36:44.130 --> 00:36:50.036
Maybe I'll share here just while we're chatting about it, and it's let me make sure I don't mess this up but it's different.

00:36:50.036 --> 00:36:56.733
Being different is better than being better, which essentially means Great point.

00:36:56.733 --> 00:37:01.346
I don't.

00:37:01.346 --> 00:37:03.077
Am I trying to be a better accountant than the next accountant here?

00:37:03.077 --> 00:37:04.445
Am I going to be able to recite all the tax codes?

00:37:04.445 --> 00:37:06.010
Is that what I should do?

00:37:06.010 --> 00:37:11.090
No, it's not trying to be better than the next guy, it's trying to be different.

00:37:12.146 --> 00:37:19.795
Bring something different to the table, because otherwise you're just like everyone else and if you're just like everyone else you're probably going to get outsourced.

00:37:19.795 --> 00:37:30.016
You know, and that core concept of that book always resonated with me and it's the first thing I thought of when you asked about that.

00:37:30.016 --> 00:37:32.409
I was unsure how popular that book is.

00:37:32.429 --> 00:37:33.632
That's a great recommendation.

00:37:33.632 --> 00:37:34.594
I appreciate that.

00:37:34.594 --> 00:37:36.798
Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:36.798 --> 00:37:40.494
So in your personal time, do you do anything for fun?

00:37:42.445 --> 00:37:44.795
I like to think I do a lot of things for fun, steve.

00:37:44.795 --> 00:37:55.750
I try to weave in as much fun into everything work day after nine to five, all those things so if you see any of the stuff I put out, there's always a playful side to it.

00:37:55.750 --> 00:38:12.478
So you can probably see I I draw and illustrate a lot of funny kind of like comic stuff alongside, like some of the, the articles that I'll post and stuff like that so I'm trying to have fun, even as it relates to like my profession as well, the professional topic of accounting.

00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.510
But but, yeah, outside of that, I mean I have a two-year-old son.

00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:17.472
He's so much fun.

00:38:17.472 --> 00:38:20.764
So really trying to nice, I, I enjoy.

00:38:20.764 --> 00:38:26.168
Oh, it's such a fun age and I really enjoy seeing the things that I love through his eyes.

00:38:26.168 --> 00:38:42.119
So turned into a big family man these last few years and love to travel into a bunch of different different countries and obviously that slowed after before with the pandemic and picked it back up a little bit last year and hoping to do some more international travel.

00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:43.860
So, um, between that.

00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:45.882
And also a big music guy.

00:38:45.882 --> 00:38:53.347
So, uh, haven't picked up an instrument in a while but but I always enjoy like picking up the guitar, learning a new song and things like that.

00:38:53.347 --> 00:39:03.496
And um, and then movies and some big movie movie buff kind of guy, so uh, and then, um, I'm in Chicago now but previously had lived in Baltimore.

00:39:03.496 --> 00:39:07.952
I was living downtown and then in San Francisco I was living in downtown San Francisco.

00:39:07.952 --> 00:39:17.115
So I'm also just a city guy who likes to try new restaurants and go to cool coffee shops and see what's out there.

00:39:17.115 --> 00:39:30.130
So just being a little bit of an urban explorer is something that I guess I wouldn't call it a hobby, but I definitely do that stuff for fun, so hopefully, people can kind of Beyond the accounting and the finance.

00:39:30.952 --> 00:39:36.456
You do, you do, and there's a lot out there and I try to capture as much of that as I can.

00:39:36.456 --> 00:39:38.833
I mean, we only have so much free time.

00:39:38.833 --> 00:39:46.492
You know and how you spend that time and I try to be productive with that free time, but also, you know, having fun.

00:39:46.492 --> 00:39:48.246
You know as much as possible.

00:39:48.327 --> 00:39:50.271
So I think that really helps.

00:39:50.331 --> 00:40:06.077
Having having a fulfilling career too, I think is isn't about the career itself, it's about having the space to unwind and have that, that work-life balance that requires you to have the life part of that work life balance equation.

00:40:06.077 --> 00:40:21.579
So I love that, like the younger generation is really pushing mental health and flexibility with work location, so I'm really hoping that you know that becomes a bigger part of work culture in America.

00:40:21.579 --> 00:40:30.733
This work life balance not just as a tagline that you put on a shirt, but actually in practice and at least in accounting we're seeing it.

00:40:30.733 --> 00:40:46.148
It's one of those fields that because you're a knowledge worker, because you can do it on your laptop, maybe you don't need to be in the office all the time, maybe you can be in hybrid or even fully remote and work from a different country or take longer trips and things like that.

00:40:46.148 --> 00:40:48.090
So it's a good profession to be in.

00:40:48.090 --> 00:40:50.815
I hope you felt the same way too.

00:40:50.815 --> 00:40:53.056
I know, definitely I do.

00:40:53.237 --> 00:40:53.657
I love it.

00:40:53.657 --> 00:40:55.500
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:40:55.500 --> 00:41:00.282
Hey, please share your website again and the course that you put out.

00:41:02.204 --> 00:41:06.387
Yeah, yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn, mike Manilak, cpa.

00:41:06.387 --> 00:41:07.847
I'll probably pop up.

00:41:07.847 --> 00:41:08.768

Navigating Career Changes in Accounting with Insights from Mike Manalac, Accounting Manager, Google

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